[x3d-public] Tiered design for skeleton, skin, coveroids
Don Brutzman
don.brutzman at gmail.com
Tue Nov 11 17:47:11 PST 2025
Showing a side view sounds like a good idea.
Am thinking you likely mean figures 4.5 through 4.8.
- HAnim Architecture, draft v2.1, clause 4 Concepts
<https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/concepts.html>
- Figure 4.1 — Humanoid coordinate system
<https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/concepts.html#f-HumanoidCoordinateSystem>
- Figure 4.2 4.1 — Humanoid default binding pose matches the "I" pose
position (with each character viewed from in front and from the left
side)
<https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/concepts.html#f-DefaultPose>
- Figure 4.3 4.2 — Hand orientation
<https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/concepts.html#f-HandOrientation>
- Figure 4.4 4.3 — LOA‑0 joint
<https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/concepts.html#f-LOA0Joint>
- Figure 4.5 4.4 — LOA‑1 joints
<https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/concepts.html#f-LOA1Joints>
- Figure 4.6 4.5 — LOA‑2 joints
<https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/concepts.html#f-LOA2Joints>
- Figure 4.7 4.6 — LOA‑3 joints
<https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/concepts.html#f-LOA3Joints>
- Figure 4.8 4.7 — LOA‑4 joints
<https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/concepts.html#f-LOA4Joints>
- Figure 4.9 4.8 — LOA‑4 hand joints
<https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/concepts.html#f-HandJoints>
- Figure 4.10 4.9 — LOA‑4 foot joints
<https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/concepts.html#f-FootJoints>
- Figure 4.11 — Basic set of Joint:Segment hierarchy for LOA‑0
<https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/concepts.html#f-BasicSetJointHierarchy0>
- Figure 4.12 4.10 — Basic set of Joint:Segment hierarchy for LOA‑1
<https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/concepts.html#f-BasicSetJointHierarchy1>
- Figure 4.13 4.11 — Basic set of Joint:Segment hierarchy for LOA‑2
<https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/concepts.html#f-BasicSetJointHierarchy2>
- Figure 4.14 4.12 — Basic set of Joint:Segment hierarchy for LOA‑3
<https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/concepts.html#f-BasicSetJointHierarchy3>
- Figure 4.15 4.13 — Basic set of Joint:Segment hierarchy for LOA‑4
<https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/concepts.html#f-BasicSetJointHierarchy4>
Creation of those diagrams took a lot of work, Myeong manually applied the
red circles and we carefully checked them.
Suggest we consider one or more separate figures to convey the information
you want. Starting with candidate prose, caption(s) and paragraph location
will help.
all the best, Don
--
X3D Graphics, Maritime Robotics, Distributed Simulation
Relative Motion Consulting https://RelativeMotion.info
On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 11:49 AM Carol McDonald <cemd2 at comcast.net> wrote:
> I would add in another recommendation for images. Since it is important
> to understand the side view of the spine, I would recommend adding in side
> views of the spine for figures 4.3, 4.4, 4.5 and 4.6. It is hard to
> explain posture without these images.
>
> Thanks
>
> Carol
>
> On 11/11/2025 9:30 AM PST Don Brutzman <don.brutzman at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks 1M Joe for these excellent thoughts, and also for a productive
> group dialog yesterday. Our updated design goals from yesterday's weekly
> meeting can be found at
>
> - HAnim architecture draft v2.1, clause 4 Concepts, 4.2.3 Tiered
> design for skeleton, skin, coveroids
> <https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/concepts.html#TieredDesign>
>
> I agree with your reasoning that an author building a coveroid ought to be
> able to use either Shape geometry (as occurs in the Humanoid *skeleton*
> field), a morphable mesh (similar to the Humanoid *skin *field), or
> both. Then add Site nodes to define locations for specific
> functionality, including connection points. This design pattern already
> works for Humanoid... for example
>
> - Joe Skeleton Skin Site Salute Walk
> <https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Skin/JoeSkeletonSkinSiteSaluteWalkIndex.html>
>
> Searching for "coveroid" - the following article is also interesting,
> reinforced by Carol McDonald's multiple contributions.
>
> - IEEE SA - How Can the Internet of Clothing Benefit Our Wellbeing and
> Environment?
> <https://standards.ieee.org/beyond-standards/industry/retail/how-can-the-internet-of-clothing-benefit-our-wellbeing-and-environment/>
> - Innovations in Wearable Technology Allow Brands and Consumers to
> Reimagine The Future of Clothing
> - IEEE Standards Association (SA), 2 SEP 2022
>
> particularly
>
>
> *Four Fundamental Components of the Internet of Clothing*
> IoC is enabling new ways for consumers to interact with and benefit from
> their clothing, as well as creating new ways for brands to reach them. And
> data is at the heart of the ecosystem.
>
>
>
> A white paper from the IEEE SA 3D Body Processing Industry Connections
> (IC) Activity
> <https://standards.ieee.org/industry-connections/3d/bodyprocessing/> outlines
> four interconnected components of the data transfer system – human,
> humanoid, cover, and coveroid:
>
>
>
>
> - The human refers to the actual person who wears the piece of
> clothing or footwear while the humanoid is a digital representation of
> the human, such as measurement data sets, dress forms, mannequins, or
> statues. The humanoid is used in the development of the product and is
> created by manual measurement, 3D body scanning of a human, 3D point cloud
> data (PCD) of a human, algorithms, population data, or any combination of
> these.
>
>
> - The cover is anything that a human wears on or above the skin.
> Covers can be an outfit, multiple layers, or a single garment. When
> creating the product, manufacturers use a coveroid, which is a
> physical or digital representative of a cover. Coveroids can be created
> from physical or virtual measurement data, 3D cover scan data, cover point
> cloud data, visual algorithm, material algorithm, or a combination of these.
>
> The body data comes from humans, such as the body temperature, and then it
> is transferred to the humanoid, coveroid, and cover. These four fundamental
> components work together to form a framework of data sharing within the IoC
> ecosystem.
>
>
> It sure seems like the more we examine these IEEE 3DBP concepts from an
> HAnim specification perspective, the more adaptable and integratable they
> seem. Step by step...
>
> So far we have resisted the creation of a new node in HAnim Architecture,
> finding that most of the needed functionality can be implemented using
> existing HAnim nodes.
>
> Nevertheless, since outer tiers might have single or multiple coveroids,
> defining an HAnim Coveroid node would let us encapsulate needed
> functionality and corresponding metadata in a single package. This can
> also facilitate independent creation of a Coveroid object with later
> attachment to (or disconnection from) a Humanoid object.
>
> Hmmm.... thoughts please:
>
> - Why don't we try to define a Coveroid object, which attempts to meet
> these many requirements, and which can be separately created/shared then
> eventually collected as outer tiers attached to a Humanoid object.
>
> all the best, Don
> --
> X3D Graphics, Maritime Robotics, Distributed Simulation
> Relative Motion Consulting https://RelativeMotion.info
>
> On Mon, Nov 10, 2025 at 10:15 AM Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Any more requirements?
>
>
>
> The tiers need subsets for various levels of functionality.
>
> From simple 'costume fitment' garments with few binding points
>
> for coveroid to skeleton, up to a 'purchase fitment' coveroid
>
> with complete enough data for a realistic test/purchase/deliver
>
> process.
>
>
>
> Also, the coveroid may be a collection of Segment geometry
>
> corresponding to the x3d Level 1, or be the x3d Level 2
>
> which includes skeleton-driven skin, and various Displacers.
>
>
>
> The top-level model Coveroid will be as smart, maybe smarter,
>
> than the Humanoid because for physical delivery, it is still the
>
> provider guaranteeing the fit. The Humanoid will have
>
> to provide all the fitting information the Coveroid needs to decide
>
> how to incorporate the Coveroid. Then the Humanoid must
>
> evaluate and accept. Then there is the case where the Humanoid
>
> obtain a certain digital piece and do the fitment using other
>
> personal authorship tools.
>
>
>
> So, seems like there needs to be a common set of requirements
>
> for the Humanoid and the Coveroid, so the both oids can integrate.
>
> So the Humanoid goes in and picks a garment and the store says,
>
> "Sorry, you don't currently include sufficient Sensors and Actuators
>
> to try that on. Can we interest you in a selection from this simpler set,
>
> or can you jaunt to the Upgrade Suite?"
>
>
>
> Thanks and Fun with Coveroids,
>
> Joe
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 9, 2025 at 8:55 PM Don Brutzman <don.brutzman at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Given our recent positive experiences with HAnimHumanoid re-use in X3D,
> have appended an additional design requirement. This seems similarly
> do-able.
>
>
> l. The X3D Architecture implementation of HAnim Architecture allows
> repeatable use of HAnimHumanoid nodes when EXPORT [AS] exposes it from
> one file, and Inline, IMPORT [AS] and then USE retrieve the HAnimHumanoid node
> in another file. Similar mechanisms need to be possible for scalable re-use
> and animation of clothing and coveroid models.
>
>
> all the best, Don
> --
> X3D Graphics, Maritime Robotics, Distributed Simulation
> Relative Motion Consulting https://RelativeMotion.info
>
> On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 3:14 PM Don Brutzman <don.brutzman at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Dick and I took a good round turn
> <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary_of_U.S._Navy_slang#:~:text=Round%20Turn>
> today on draft HAnim v2.1 spec design considerations for clothing, building
> on the list we reviewed together last Monday.
>
> - HAnim Architecture, draft v2.1, section 4 Concepts, 4.2.3 Tiered
> design for internal organs, skeleton, skin, coveroids
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/concepts.html#TieredDesign
>
> 4.2.3 Tiered design for internal organs, skeleton, skin, coveroids
>
> Editors notes:
>
> - Need to describe overall design for Humanoid to have multiple tiers,
> so that layers of clothing can be added compatibly outside a human body.
> - This tiered approach starts with internal organs and musculature
> (someday when ready), then skeleton, then skin, then coveroids...
> - Conceivably this design will integrate well as a *coveroids* field
> for Humanoid
> <https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/ObjectInterfaces.html#Humanoid>
> object.
>
> Terminology:
>
> - Tier <https://simple.wiktionary.org/wiki/tier> is excellent new term
> to use, since we already have existing definitions for layers and levels.
> - We use the term "coveroids" for the outermost tiers, also for name
> of an ordered array field in Humanoid.
> - We hesitate to use the term "clothing" as a field name because it
> might be too limiting with respect to possible usage (e.g. suit of armor,
> artificial exoskeleton) and also because we need to consider non-human use
> cases.
> - Nevertheless "clothes" and "clothing" remain candidate terminology
> for some cases, e.g. OED definition "clothes are items worn to cover the
> body."
>
> Design goals and requirements include:
>
> 1. Current tiers of interest are skeleton, skin, and coveroids.
> Deferred as candidate future tiers: internal organs, musculature, and
> (potentially) a specific facial model.
> 2. Each tier must be rendered in the correct order, from inside to
> outside.
> 3. It must be possible to independently select which tiers are active
> in the current model.
> 4. Can Joint objects be used as root node for each tier (e.g. layer of
> clothing) or is a new node needed? If possible, for both implementation
> complexity and author understanding, it is preferable to *not* add new
> nodes to the specification.
> 5. How do we handle meshes for coveroids? Similar to skin, authors may
> prefer Segment-based geometry or mesh changes or both. If design ends up
> being sufficiently similar, might we modify and refactor the existing
> *skin* field to be a list of meshes for each of tiers? Alternatively,
> it may be more object-oriented to keep each mesh encapsulated in each
> individual tier.
> 6. To support such an approach for coveroids and other tiers, might we
> add *visible* field to Joint
> <https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/ObjectInterfaces.html#Joint>
> and Segment
> <https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/ObjectInterfaces.html#Segment> objects,
> in order to facilitate making blocks of geometry (and all related children)
> nonvisible and inactive? Correspondingly ought we create a boolean array
> for visibility in Humanoid object? (A similar approach using a boolean
> array already exists for Motion node, however note that when implemented in
> X3D that requires authors to use scripting and is awkward to control at run
> time.)
> 7. If a particular tier has no geometry, or is not visible, then it is
> not active.
> 8. What are requirements for definition of connections between tiers
> (for example, layers of clothing connections to skin/skeleton)? Such
> connectivity almost certainly must link (directly or indirectly) to
> skeleton in order to maintain coherent animation of the humanoid. The
> Site object is an obvious candidate for defining such connectivity.
> 9. Can Site object be applied consistently in context of each of the
> tiers? In other words, is a point-wise approach using Site sufficient, or
> might other kinds of connections be necessary? It is likely possible but
> careful definitions are needed since non-point connections (line or
> surfaces) might be needed. (For example, is the shoulder line for clothing
> represented by a set of points or a line?)
> 10. Need ability to attach or detach connections (for example, when a
> humanoid is putting on or taking off a hat).
> 11. Test case: is fur part of skin or part of coveroids? (Such design
> is probably an author option, who might also choose to paint segment
> geometry.)
> 12. Any more requirements?
>
> Group conversations are definitely helping, and comments are always
> welcome.
>
> This approach has potential to only require addition of a *coveroids* field
> to the *Humanoid*
> <https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/ObjectInterfaces.html#Humanoid>
> object, which is interesting simplicity. Also addition of *visible *field
> to Joint
> <https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/ObjectInterfaces.html#Joint>
> and Segment
> <https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/ObjectInterfaces.html#Segment> objects
> offers appealing usefulness from a regular HAnim perspective, the ability
> to hide limbs or portions of the body... Things look a little better each
> time.
>
> Once we are all reasonable happy with these requirements, suggested next
> steps are:
>
> - define a few simple use cases that describe expected functionality,
> later looking at MSF use cases.
> - start converting design requirements into specification prose,
> - building a simple example.
>
> Have fun thinking about future Humanoids wearing clothes! 👔👕👖👗👘👙👚🥼
>
> p.s. for Carol: and shoes too! 👡👢🥾🩴👞👟👠🥿🩰
>
> all the best, Don
> --
> X3D Graphics, Maritime Robotics, Distributed Simulation
> Relative Motion Consulting https://RelativeMotion.info
>
>
>
>
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