[x3d-public] HAnimDisplacer effect on coord.point

John Carlson yottzumm at gmail.com
Fri Feb 21 13:31:12 PST 2025 

I didn’t understand that I needed a viewpoint inside the layers.

Yes, I have been taking some time off for other activities.

At one point, I worked 3 days straight without sleep or food.  If I get
going, sometimes I work even when the keyboard starts glowing (it’s not
lighted).


On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 2:23 PM Holger Seelig via x3d-public <
x3d-public at web3d.org> wrote:

> Think easy. Don’t make things more difficult than they are.
>
> Here a link ready to try out for the lazy ones:
>
> https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/playground/?url=https://gist.githubusercontent.com/create3000/7c9b576f8b3b52d1b51e3fb98b2e93dc/raw/23d76cfb19f7719af4c942f7d9553f386005238d/Layers.x3d
>
> Best regards,
> Holger
>
> --
> Holger Seelig
> Leipzig, Germany
>
> holger.seelig at yahoo.de
> https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/
>
> Am 21.02.2025 um 21:02 schrieb Holger Seelig via x3d-public <
> x3d-public at web3d.org>:
>
> Using layer is more easy as using a ProximitySensor. Each Layer node has
> its own X3DBindableNode stack, thus own viewpoints, background, fog,
> navigation info. There can only be one active layer where navigation takes
> place, to be specified with LayerSet.activeLayer. Example attached.
>
> Best regards,
> Holger
>
> <Layers.x3d>
>
>
> --
> Holger Seelig
> Leipzig, Germany
>
> holger.seelig at yahoo.de
> https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/
>
> Am 21.02.2025 um 20:37 schrieb John Carlson via x3d-public <
> x3d-public at web3d.org>:
>
> Hmm.  I took out the layering code in the latest zip, Clocks6.zip.  Check
> out Andreas’ version if you’re having trouble unpacking it.
>
> Layering/Layout is like a 2D layer on top of a 3D layer.  Holger’s point
> was that it might be useful for a HUD.
>
> Please view current zip, around the ProximitySensor, and Hud ROUTEs.
>
> I don’t know how to make the menu rotate opposite the mouse, or how to
> keep the menu in the HUD.
>
> I will look into Viewpoints.
>
> John
>
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 12:56 PM Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>> >  take out  layering code ...
>>
>>
>> I still don't see how layering will help in making a HUD.
>> Can you have one viewpoint in one layer and navigate but have a second
>> viewpoint in another layer that keeps the menu up front?
>> Ithinktheprox sensor works everywhere bu x3dom?
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Extensible 3D (X3D) Graphics public discussion <
>> x3d-public at web3d.org>
>> Sent: Feb 20, 2025 12:18 PM
>> To: Extensible 3D (X3D) Graphics public discussion <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>> Cc: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] HAnimDisplacer effect on coord.point
>>
>>
>> I guess there could be some weird encoding or formatting issue.  I use
>> GitHub Bash inside Windows Terminal, I don’t know if I am encoding with
>> Cp1252 or something Windows specific.  I’ll do more research.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2025 at 7:19 AM Holger Seelig via x3d-public <
>> x3d-public at web3d.org> wrote:
>>
>>> For some reason I cannot open those *.zip files from you John. My system
>>> say „Unknown file format“.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Holger
>>>
>>> --
>>> Holger Seelig
>>> Leipzig, Germany
>>>
>>> holger.seelig at yahoo.de
>>> https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 20.02.2025 um 00:24 schrieb John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Attached is an example with a Hud.  I can't get the menu (with the Hud
>>> ProximitySensor and Transforms) to move differently than Jin, so I'm kind
>>> of stuck.
>>>
>>> There's probably some silly problem that I missed.  The menus move
>>> with the mouse.
>>>
>>> Thanks for looking,
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 6:49 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for code samples, Joe.  It looks like I can take out my
>>>> Layering/Layout code and just focus on the menu.  Sorry I am so slow on
>>>> this, I think I might be hibernating.
>>>>
>>>> I’m looking at my GitHub commits and they have dropped drastically.
>>>> This might be because I am spending more time helping others with recovery
>>>> or just using social media too much.
>>>>
>>>> I will try to get to the HUD in the next two days.  It was so cold, we
>>>> didn’t even go to the dentist 45 miles away.  We got out today though.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 6:38 PM Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> > a HUD for Joe
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A hud for the FACS example is needed because any navigation causes the
>>>>> menu to disappear. The menu can be just like used on the Jin scaled with
>>>>> animation example. However that uses a ProximitySensor which x3dom does not
>>>>> support, for some reason. We use that a lot for start timers, timers,
>>>>> etc.as well as being the typical way to keep a menu or scene data in
>>>>> view.
>>>>> If HTML/SVG is better, I have not seen it. I don't think Stacking
>>>>> canvas is appropriate. Fine to think of XR for in-world 2d or3d HUDS but
>>>>> does that sort ofdisplay really work any different than using prox sensor?
>>>>> ProximitySensor is just so basic.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>      <ProximitySensor DEF='HudProx' size='50 50 50'/>
>>>>>       <Transform DEF='HudXform' rotation='0 1 0 0.78' translation='2 1
>>>>> 2'>
>>>>>         <Transform DEF='Menu' scale='0.02 0.02 0.02'
>>>>> translation='-0.38 0.05 -0.75'>
>>>>> rest of menu
>>>>>        <ROUTE fromField='position_changed' fromNode='HudProx'
>>>>> toField='set_translation' toNode='HudXform'/>
>>>>>        <ROUTE fromField='orientation_changed' fromNode='HudProx'
>>>>> toField='set_rotation' toNode='HudXform'/>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks and Best,
>>>>> Joe
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> huds3d
>>>>> XR
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch at gmail.com>
>>>>> Sent: Feb 18, 2025 11:45 AM
>>>>> To: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>>>> Cc: Extensible 3D (X3D) Graphics public discussion <
>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org>, Holger Seelig <holger.seelig at yahoo.de>, Joseph
>>>>> D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>, Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
>>>>> brutzman at nps.edu>, Carol McDonald <cemd2 at comcast.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] HAnimDisplacer effect on coord.point
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Please do not wait for x3dom. Both ProximitySensor and the Layering
>>>>> component are lower priority. HTML/SVG is better suited for 2D HUDs and
>>>>> layering can be approximated by stacking multiple X3D canvases/scenes. You
>>>>> may also consider XR where immersion typically strongly favors in-world 3d
>>>>> HUDs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best, -Andreas
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 2:25 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Don, we’re currently working on a HUD for Joe, I don’t currently have
>>>>>> an online example of that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Otherwise, I’m waiting on someone deciding which meshes to merge.  I
>>>>>> could take the lead on this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I could use a tutorial on the Layering and Layout components,
>>>>>> examples don’t seem to help.  I may try to adopt a 3D HUD based on
>>>>>> examples.  Something with the 2D overlay in WORLD space would help
>>>>>> tremendously, or some conversion from WORLD space.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We already have 3D menus, so a 3D HUD might be easiest.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John
>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 11:18 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) via
>>>>>> x3d-public <x3d-public at web3d.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wondering, do we have a simple excerpted example that we can look at
>>>>>>> yet?  That will help guide these discussions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don't need a full human body animation in all its displaceable
>>>>>>> glory...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> all the best, Don
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>>>>>>> brutzman at nps.edu
>>>>>>> Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
>>>>>>> +1.831.656.2149
>>>>>>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
>>>>>>> https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>> *From:* x3d-public <x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org> on behalf of Joe
>>>>>>> D Williams via x3d-public <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, February 15, 2025 6:55 PM
>>>>>>> *To:* Holger Seelig <holger.seelig at yahoo.de>; Andreas Plesch <
>>>>>>> andreasplesch at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> *Cc:* joedwil at earthlink.net <joedwil at earthlink.net>; X3D <
>>>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org>; Carol McDonald <cemd2 at comcast.net>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [x3d-public] HAnimDisplacer effect on coord.point
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  > coord.point changes are very very expensive quickly,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Right, the processing time gets expensive as the number of points
>>>>>>> moved.
>>>>>>> If level 1 segment geometry where the mesh is driven directly by a
>>>>>>> joint, then it easier since weight is always 1.
>>>>>>> For level 2 skin, the the weight (radial movement) applied by maybe
>>>>>>> multiple joints needs to be computed for each point.
>>>>>>> Finally, for both levels, the displacements for selected set of
>>>>>>> points needs to be applied.
>>>>>>> This implies multiple passes on the subject coordinates?
>>>>>>> Whatever, these operations are common where the applications deal
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> a complete mesh and with sparse points of a mesh for blending.  .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > with reference to CoordinateInterpolator,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> These are useful when controlling all points of a target mesh.
>>>>>>> All points of a mesh must be included and same number of points at
>>>>>>> each keyframe.
>>>>>>> This style was used in first step of the current example x3d FACS
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> face geometry is made from multiple shapes. CoordinateInterpolater
>>>>>>> sets
>>>>>>> for each shape for each elemental action moved the points.
>>>>>>> This was simplified to using the same face for each action example
>>>>>>> and then replaced the CIs with sets of Displacers.
>>>>>>> Now have developed further to combine individual actions to make a
>>>>>>> specific expression which consists of multiple elemental movements.
>>>>>>> However, I think we want to evolve towards a basic single mesh face
>>>>>>> with some individual shapes for like teeth, hair, eyeballs, eyelids,
>>>>>>> tongue, maybe ears?
>>>>>>> and using joint nodes to control, where appropriate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regardless of how the points are moved for the next frame, it has to
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> considered that geometry points will be moved directly by joint
>>>>>>> rotations,
>>>>>>> by a weighting algorithm using multiple joint rotation inputs,
>>>>>>> and by one or more scalar-driven Displacer inputs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for HAnim,
>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Holger Seelig <holger.seelig at yahoo.de>
>>>>>>> Sent: Feb 9, 2025 11:23 AM
>>>>>>> To: Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Cc: X3D <x3d-public at web3d.org>, Joseph D Williams <
>>>>>>> joedwil at earthlink.net>, Carol McDonald <cemd2 at comcast.net>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] HAnimDisplacer effect on coord.point
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think so, coord.point changes are very very expensive
>>>>>>> quickly, and as Michalis said earlier, with reference to
>>>>>>> CoordinateInterpolator, we should get rid of them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Holger
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Holger Seelig
>>>>>>> Leipzig, Germany
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> holger.seelig at yahoo.de
>>>>>>> https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Am 09.02.2025 um 19:44 schrieb Andreas Plesch <
>>>>>>> andreasplesch at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>> Yes, that is an option. However,coord.point changes are very very
>>>>>>> expensive quickly, and as Michalis said earlier, with reference to
>>>>>>> CoordinateInterpolator, we should get rid of them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andreas
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 9, 2025, 1:40 PM Holger Seelig <holger.seelig at yahoo.de>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> X_ITE applies the HAnimDisplacers in the shader, thus no coord.point
>>>>>>> field has to be changed.
>>>>>>> Maybe that helps.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>> Holger
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Holger Seelig
>>>>>>> Leipzig, Germany
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> holger.seelig at yahoo.de
>>>>>>> https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Am 09.02.2025 um 19:33 schrieb Andreas Plesch via x3d-public <
>>>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That would be the point field of a Coordinate node
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-IS/Part01/components/rendering.html#Coordinate
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> which is used by the coord field of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-IS/Part01/components/hanim.html#HAnimSegment
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andreas
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 9, 2025, 12:36 PM Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >  coord node emit a point_changed event
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> sorry,I don't see a field anywhere with that event. Displacer is
>>>>>>> likely to change several points when new weight is sent. All part of the
>>>>>>> cascade to produce the changed mesh?
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Feb 9, 2025 4:25 AM
>>>>>>> To: Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>
>>>>>>> Cc: Extensible 3D (X3D) Graphics public discussion <
>>>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org>, Carol McDonald <cemd2 at comcast.net>, Joe D
>>>>>>> Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>, John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] HAnimDisplacer effect on coord.point
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don, Joe and John
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for collecting these references.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I am not sure if there is an answer to my original question. Let
>>>>>>> me rephrase a bit the question:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After a Displacer contained in a Segment node receives a set_weight
>>>>>>> input, should then the coord node emit a point_changed event ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I do not think HAnim is concerned about that, so it is really a X3D
>>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks, Andreas
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 9, 2025, 12:49 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
>>>>>>> brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for pointing in the right direction John.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Direct links to functional requirements for Displacer in HAnim 2.0
>>>>>>> specification:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    - HAnim 2.0. Part 1:  Humanoid animation (HAnim) architecture,
>>>>>>>    Clause 4 Concepts, 4.7 Displacer object
>>>>>>>    -
>>>>>>>    https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/Architecture/concepts.html#DisplacerObject
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    - HAnim 2.0. Part 1:  Humanoid animation (HAnim) architecture,
>>>>>>>    Clause 6 Object interfaces, 6.6 Displacer
>>>>>>>    -
>>>>>>>    https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/Architecture/ObjectInterfaces.html#Displacer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    - X3D 4.0 Architecture, Clause 26 Humanoid Animation (HAnim)
>>>>>>>    component, 26.3.1 HAnimDisplacer
>>>>>>>    -
>>>>>>>    https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-IS/Part01/components/hanim.html#HAnimDisplacer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and informative
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    - X3D Tooltips, HAnimDisplacer
>>>>>>>    -
>>>>>>>    https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/X3dTooltips.html#HAnimDisplacer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for implementation efforts and careful scrutiny.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Questions and potential issues/clarifications/corrections are always
>>>>>>> welcome.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> all the best, Don
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>>>>>>> brutzman at nps.edu
>>>>>>> Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
>>>>>>> +1.831.656.2149
>>>>>>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
>>>>>>> https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>> *From:* x3d-public <x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org> on behalf of John
>>>>>>> Carlson via x3d-public <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, February 8, 2025 3:43 AM
>>>>>>> *To:* Extensible 3D (X3D) Graphics public discussion <
>>>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org>; Carol McDonald <cemd2 at comcast.net>; Joe D
>>>>>>> Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>> *Cc:* John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>; Andreas Plesch <
>>>>>>> andreasplesch at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [x3d-public] HAnimDisplacer effect on coord.point
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here’s what HAnim spec says under Displacer:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/index.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “For the *Displacer* objects that are contained in the *displacers* field
>>>>>>> of the *Segment* objects, the *displacements* are defined and
>>>>>>> applied in the *Segment* coordinate system. The base mesh for the
>>>>>>> morphed *Segment* is the original mesh defined in the *Segment*.”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And here’s what it says under Segment:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The *coord* field is used for *Segment* objects that have
>>>>>>> deformable meshes and shall contain coordinates referenced from the indexed
>>>>>>> mesh for the *Segment* object. The coordinates are given the same
>>>>>>> name as the *Segment* object, but with a "_coords" appended (e.g.,
>>>>>>> "skull_coords").”
>>>>>>> displacements are an offset from the mesh,  with weight from 0 to
>>>>>>> 1.  So weight times displacement is total offset from base mesh.  0 weight
>>>>>>> = no offset, 1 weight = full displacements offset
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Coordinate point is maintained to handle weight = 0.  Weight
>>>>>>> ranges from 0 to 1, but double check.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joe or Carol might know where to find it in the HAnim spec.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I believe the answer is, “during rendering,”. Since weight can vary
>>>>>>> with animation, and so can displacements, AFAIK.  More than one displacer
>>>>>>> can be applied to the mesh.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have not read the spec.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 8, 2025 at 5:13 AM Andreas Plesch via x3d-public <
>>>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V4.0/Part01/components/hanim.html#HAnimDisplacer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> does not directly explain what the effect of the displacer on the
>>>>>>> coord.point field of the containing HAnimSegment is. But it mentions the
>>>>>>> coord.point field and seems to imply that the coord.point field is involved.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So the question is if the Displacer should alter the coord.point
>>>>>>> field in order to achieve a graphical displacement, or if the Browser
>>>>>>> should only apply the displacements during rendering without a change in
>>>>>>> the coord.point field ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is relevant if the coord.point field is accessed by routes or
>>>>>>> scripts, in addition to displacers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for any feedback or ideas,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andreas
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Andreas Plesch
>>>>>>> Waltham, MA 02453
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> x3d-public mailing list
>>>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org
>>>>>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> x3d-public mailing list
>>>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org
>>>>>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> x3d-public mailing list
>>>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org
>>>>>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Andreas Plesch
>>>>> Waltham, MA 02453
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> <Clocks6.zip>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> x3d-public mailing list
>>> x3d-public at web3d.org
>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>
>>
>>
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