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RE: [www-vrml] RE: [x3d-public] Shaders and Triangles: was dedicated working-group focus on X3D interoperability
Or you build for one of the commercial VRML sites that already license the
technologies such as JOI or its siblings. That is a 'pick your content type
and who you want to work with' and take the risks with them choice. Because
these are typically subscriber-financed, the money won't be that good.
While these sites do get traffic, what you won't get that way is the traffic
at the level of SL or WoW. It's a bit like building for Rochester instead
of New York. The level of technical support will vary with full-time staff
size. On the other hand, some of the work in there is first-class stunning
stuff.
Blaxxun still sells their MU systems with the graded licenses based on
numbers of concurrent users. This of course means owning the room and
bearing the costs of the servers and the software licenses, then building up
your own traffic. There is also FreeWRL for the Mac but I don't think it is
MU.
AbNet is a good compromise. There are no in-world building tools but I
question why that is better than the available tools for X3D. The release
of Flux Studio (free for personal use) and the combinations of freeware (eg,
Chisel, X3DEdit and Avatar Studio) and deadware (eg, copies of V-Realm
Builder) or demoware (the limited Internet Space Builder) offsets the
advantages of the in-world building tools. Some of these mean that the
learning curve is tougher but you are experienced so that isn't a problem
and you get the power back. So I think this topic is useful and would like
to hear your opinions. Why are in-world tools required?
The problem remains traffic. It is hard to offset the advantage of venture
capital fueling a media hype machine with all of the carefully placed
articles and mentions coupled to a free subscriber base. The ability to
just walk-in with no skinny up front is why I liken it to the nightclub
business without cover charges. Investors take the big risks there too.
For this problem, we are on our own to some degree. Some of us are
campaigning by staying informed where articles are being published and using
the comments sections to proseletyze X3D somewhat the way CBGBs and other
small ventures were in the hey day of punk.
If you look at the numbers Bit Management is posting, you find that the
searches for information about X3D have been steadily increasing. Partly,
this is in response to the success of SL and people looking for alternatives
to build their own worlds on without the IP encumbrances of SL and partly
because of the private campaigns and the commercial ventures as well as the
Consortium making judicious use of its resources. Part of it is because of
the sponsoring of the international standard by state and federal contract
requirements. The call for IBM for standards for 3D on the web has caused
some agencies to question their assertions because they are aware that
standards did exist and they go looking to see what became of them. Others
such as the New York Metropolitan Transit Authority that have already issued
RFPs and are now procuring simulations for public safety based on X3D/VRML
(still VRML at last check) have fueled increased interest in the homeland
security market.
Commercial interests are increasing. Artistic interests are lagging. What
that means is that the X3D market is being created slowly but on a
pay-as-you-go basis. This isn't as exciting as a VC-fueled bonfire but it
burns longer.
The good news is the 3D On The Web Is Dead pundits are increasingly seen as
the luddites they are and gigs are happening where the fur-bearers are fast
and can get to the areas of the country where the gigs are or have the
industry contacts willing to send them work. The recent articles at CNet
with the lady who is 'the first virtual millionaire' are quite good, IMO.
She gets it in terms of how to build a content company by making the care
and feeding of the talent her priority while ensuring she can keep going if
SecondLife suddenly burned. I don't think that will happen. I think SL
will select a specification for content portability and promote its use such
as Collada. That's fine. Cory and Rosedale aren't idiots. They are simply
building a business with financing and Rosedale's unique perspective on what
the right technology is. In his opinion, proprietary server farms are where
that sweet spot it. So far that is working for him but Copybot and the
scaling issues show there are limits to it.
len
From: owner-www-vrml@web3d.org [mailto:owner-www-vrml@web3d.org] On Behalf
Of Russ Kinter
Adam wrote:
>But, if I want to create an audiovisual work in a multiuser space
>using X3D right now, how do I do that?
Hi Adam,
At the moment you have three choices. Choices two and three are best for
cross platform.
1. Switch to Bitmanagment's Windows only Contact 7 and use Rick Kimball's
Abnet2. Either use Rick's site, or pay a license fee to Bitmanagment to
remove the logo.
2. Select Xj3D, which is pretty good cross platform wise, and pay someone
to either write a SAI MU system for you or license one that already exists
in some university/military base.
3. Look into VRSpace. Joe has done some stuff with Xj3D, but I am not
exactly sure what or how far. Join his developers discussion list and
ask. http://www.vrspace.org
tc
Russ Kinter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-x3d-public@web3d.org [mailto:owner-x3d-public@web3d.org] On
Behalf Of Adam Nash
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 3:09 AM
To: Len Bullard
Cc: 'Dave A'; 'X3D Graphics public mailing list'; 'Web3D Consortium
Members'; 'www-vrml'
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] Shaders and Triangles: was dedicated working-group
focus on X3D interoperability
My intention is not to criticise anyone, I just wanted to give my
perspective as a working artist, in response to Dave and Dick's
comments about tutorials for content authors.
However, point taken, and I do appreciate the work of all the people
working on X3D, that's why I stay in touch with the list and live in
hope that it will be viable for those of us who simply don't
understand most of what is said on this list.
I don't think content creators should be punished for not being able
to contribute to the technical development of the spec - I sincerely
would love to be able to create content for this platform, and have
done so for many years.
But, if I want to create an audiovisual work in a multiuser space
using X3D right now, how do I do that?
Adam
On 27/12/2006, at 4:31 PM, Len Bullard wrote:
> And that works for you. On the other hand, for those who paid your
> commissions and might not understand the risks they are taking, the
> story
> isn't so good. On the same hand, they might have to come back to
> you to
> rehost it and that is a good economy.
>
> You are off the mark on one point: online building tools and MU are
> only
> important for certain applications or genre of real-time 3D, mainly
> virtual
> reality because that is where the art is being performed. The main
> advantage is not the software technology but the server farm: in
> music
> terms, the Room. It has traffic and electron hoses.
>
> If protocols begin to shift back toward peer-to-peer as they
> certainly will
> for other applications of real-time 3D, then the server farm, or
> built in
> audience, isn't as important as the portability of the data and the
> interoperability of the systems. SL gets to surf on the waves
> created by
> the early pioneers in MU and that's fine. That's how it should be,
> but the
> momentum under that is not your art or the art of your peers; you
> are riding
> the wave of millions in venture capital and if that gasoline burns out
> before someone can add wood to the fire, the server farms go away.
> Other
> pressures such as the rapid rises in energy costs and potential green
> policies coming from the Federal government are also to be considered.
>
> I am an artist too, one who watched the 'it must be free' ethic
> collapse the
> market for his art, but that's ok because at the same time, smart
> artists
> adopt new media and this is one of them as you know. But I am also
> someone
> who knows precisely what it does to a customer and the band when a
> club
> burns down with our equipment inside it. That is where inhouse hosted
> toolkits are a blessing and a curse unless you have your own PA and
> a policy
> of taking your axes home at night. If the club furnishes all of
> that, que
> bueno. I only have to tell the customers where our NEXT gig will
> be. The
> artists who relied on the club owner exclusively will be serving
> lattes at
> Starbucks.
>
> I'm happy to see the Mac supported. IMO, it is a boutique machine for
> boutique buyers and sellers, but that is fine. Like any other
> niche, it's
> value is relative to what customers will pay and how often they
> return to
> buy again. Otherwise, it's just a platform. Cool but so is a
> Peavey PA
> from Mississippi compared to the best from Europe: audiences can't
> tell the
> difference.
>
> So those of us hewing to the goal of royalty-free open standards
> for both
> server and client side real time 3D anywhere and not just the web,
> will be
> the ones responsible for making sure if those rooms do burn, you
> have a
> place to go. Just say thank you to the volunteer doorman on your
> way in,
> and tip the waitresses. They work hard for the money.
>
> len
>
>
> From: Adam Nash [mailto:adam@yamanakanash.net]
>
> Naturally, there's always the consideration of portability, but I
> don't see SL as any less portable than VRML/X3D. It's all about the
> ideas, so as long as I keep those ideas (and, unless I suffer some
> kind of trauma to the brain, that's not going to be a problem) I can
> easily recreate them in any environment. Most scripting languages are
> pretty similar, so it would be quite easy to to modify the SL scripts
> and assets (I keep copies of all my scripts naturally, the geometry
> is just geometry, the textures and sounds are my own) to the 'next'
> suitable environment.
>
> But the point for me (as you correctly say Len) is what works now. I
> could port all my old stuff from VRML into SL, just as I could port
> the SL stuff into whatever comes next, but I'd rather just move on.
> I've archived/documented what I need to as a professional artist
> (mainly using video dumps).
>
> I can't stress enough, though, my main point which is that artist/
> content creators need two things in realtime net-based 3D: inworld
> tools and multi-user capability. Without those two things the artists
> will not come.
>
> This is illustrated by the other projects I'm currently collaborating
> on, one that uses the Torque engine to create educational worlds,
> another that uses Unreal, and another that uses a feedback cycle
> between Pure Data and Torque. They all have inworld tools and multi-
> user capability. Also, all of these tools run well on Mac.
>
> Adam
>
>
>
>
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