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Re: [www-vrml] Tim BL Is Baffled, Too
Hi Neil,
I have to say that the consortium has opened up its doors somewhat more recently. I'm glad, and hope it continues to open up further.
Please understand that when I am critical of the consortium I am annoyed at the idea and the result; not the people. I know the people who are involved in the consortium thought (and generally still think) they're doing the right thing. They are good people who are honestly interested in getting the best for web3d. Unfortunately this involved chasing the corporate dollar and being sensitive to the needs of their corporate allies. In giving the corporate sponsors value for their money (an inside view, extra influence over development, a closed mailing list, and other special treats) they effectively closed out the main hope for VRML: the users and authors and students.
I have never understood why a corporate sponsor wouldn't see belonging to the consortium as a good in itself without the need for special insider status. Surely they are there to help achieve web3d, and that is its own best reward. By including the wider community they can only enhance that aim.
Viv recently offered to pay for me to become a member of the consortium, but I declined. The idea of paying money to something which helps to keep web3d away from newcomers doesn't make sense to me.
I've heard again and again the idea put forward that the secrecy is to protect against sneaky IP attacks, but that really doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Exposing all to the wider community is the best insurance against sneaky IP attacks. Cloaking everything in secrecy would only make them harder to fight. And everything in VRML/X3D is old technology anyway. I wrote a wishlist of features I'd like to see in VRML many years ago. Most of the list still stands -- only a few have been implemented in current X3D. Heck, X3D still hasn't caught up with Contact.
I'm not saying that the consortium is an unmitigated evil. If that was the case it would have folded shortly after its creation. Of course it does good things for web3d -- it is filled with lots of smart, good people. I just think it shouldn't have walled itself off from its base.
On your other points I totally agree. We need to work out where the future of 3d lies. At various times in the past I've thought I understood... but now I'm not so sure. Now all I want is concise tools that are easy to use that I can build upon economically. I would emphasise the words "build upon". I tire of constantly having to recode the same old thing over and over again. Life is too short for that.
Again, I'm sorry that my comments often sound like I'm attacking the people. I'm not. Many of the people in the consortium are up there with those humans I most admire.
Best wishes,
- Miriam
Neil TREVETT wrote:
I am fascinated (and disappointed) that several times on this thread the Web3D Consortium is held up as an inscrutably closed and aloof organization..
Miriam >> It is great that they advanced VRML while the consortium stayed behind closed doors [and] "stole VRML"
Clayton>> [The Consortium should] Help raise that tentpole instead of leaning on a shovel and nodding its head :|
We are about to re-write the Consortium participation framework (this will be Consortium 3.0) and so I would like to try and understand the root cause of this perception. This is not a combative email - and I am not arguing that the perception exists - I am just interested to see whether anything is fixable.. Open to any and all feedback and criticism - but please keep it constructive and non-personal :) (ducks)
*My* perception is that the Consortium could not open its doors any wider. We have individual as well and academic and corporate memberships, any working group is open to any member, we have erred on the side of IP recklessness in conducting much of our business in the open - all of which go far beyond the typical industry consortium's attempts to outreach to the grass-roots. The Consortium is kept alive by normal people from the community that volunteer time and effort. and push things forward in spite of the odds.
So - what more can we do to engage the community? I would love to see people with the passion and skills of Miriam and Clayton join the Consortium and help drive things.
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Getting back to the bafflement question - I agree with comments that lack of interoperability is a big problem - but I don't think its the root cause.. IMO the root cause of the "3D Chasm" (no widespread use of 3D between design professionals and gamers) is that no-one has found a way of using 3D to provide an application that is GENUINELY USEFUL to more than a very narrow market. Its not just Web3D - there is no widespread use of 3D on the desktop either - other than design and games.
Until we find a compelling use for 3D that "normal" people care about then we will be in this "before the chasm" state. No real money, a cash-starved Consortium surviving on volunteerism, a frustrated community, spotty 3D support on non-gamer systems and no REAL financial reason to fix the interoperability problem..
But I am optimistic that someone, somewhere will make 3D truly useful. I think that the Longhorn (and OS X) desktop becoming 3D will spur innovation in this field of using 3D - which will hopefully spill over in Web3D.. Just as the original Windows (and MAC) liberated us from command-line thinking and made us think of how to use a GUI effectively in applications.
Until then we should recognize we are in a pre-chasm state:
- gear our businesses (and standards) to make money from vertical niches - not widespread deployment (unless we are in games)
- search for the beach-head applications that will let us cross the chasm
- not bitch at each other 'coz we haven't found the beach-head application yet. Its no-ones fault. We are such a small community - we should at least be working together to keep the things moving forward as best we can until 3D becomes pervasive - and I believe it will.
Neil
Neil Trevett
Senior Vice President Market Development, 3Dlabs
President, Web3D Consortium
neil.trevett@3dlabs.com www.3dlabs.com
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How I wish I could enumerate PI easily
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http://werple.net.au/~miriam
My live Journal page http://www.livejournal.com/users/miriam_e/
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