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Re: [www-vrml] Tim BL Is Baffled, Too

Hi Tony,

First let me say again that I really hate to be moaning about VRML/X3D. I feel like I should be apologising, though I know that what I'm saying is correct. It is nothing new either. Last night I was searching through my postings from years ago when I was making similar observations (I've been here since 1996). I even became so frustrated with VRML that I left to create my own VR language, but returned because my money ran out. I needed to earn an income and VRML was the only way to put 3d in a web page. My language remains unfinished.

You missed my point about LivingWorlds. It can be built on top of any 3d technology. The problem is that it was going to become central to VRML. For reasons unspoken this didn't happen. I think that was a fatal mistake, and one of about 4 major errors that severely retarded VRML. (1. the consortium taking VRML behind closed doors, 2. Parallelgraphics and Blaxxun dividing the body straight after SGI lopped off the head, 3. losing the future-vision, 4. getting bogged down with old technology and awkward syntax.)

But of course you are right that if I want something done I should do it myself. That is why I'll be handing out Greens how to vote cards this election here in Australia. That is also why I've been spending more time working on my own VR language again. I won't completely abandon VRML/X3D, but sometimes the frustration just gets too much. :)

I really do hope VRML/X3D makes it big. And I hope Flux goes on to greatness undreamed of. And I honestly hope Duncan does terrific stuff with Magnetar Games. I'd be truly delighted to find that I'm completely wrong.

No more naysaying from me...for a while... until the frustration runneth over again. :)

Best wishes,

	- Miriam


Tony Parisi wrote:

Hi Miriam,

LivingWorlds can be built on top of X3D. If you have a need, want and/or a
business justification, you can make it happen yourself. All the
technologies are in place. OK, there's a bit of a tools problem, but that's
never stopped anybody with the Will.

The team at Magnetar Games (www.magnetargames.com) is developing MU
components that connect with Flux for just this purpose (disclosure: I'm on
their advisory board). There may be stuff in development that you can use
today. (Duncan of Magnetar is cc'ed on this). It's probably still raw, but
you should contact them to see if there is something of use right now.

No moaning, girl! We need the strength and resolve of committed people such
as yourself. Don't just sit there and pray for rain-- make it happen! 

Note that I posted this same challenge to Larry Rosenthal 18 months ago. He
took it to heart, and the result is a much closer interoperation between
Flux and Vizx3d, and The X3DXperience, which is if nothing else is a beacon
showing the way. In other words, I told him to take matters into his own
hands, he did, and we're all much better off for it. You can do it, too.

You want more exemplars? Dave Arendash, Aaron Bergstrom, Brian Hay. Etc.

Go for it!
Tony


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-www-vrml@web3d.org [mailto:owner-www-vrml@web3d.org] On Behalf
Of Miriam English
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 11:25 PM
Cc: 'VRML list'; x3d-public@web3d.org
Subject: Re: [www-vrml] Tim BL Is Baffled, Too

two words: easy and cheap

ActiveWorlds used to be an example of how those conditions set off an
explosion of use. Unfortunately the owners of that proprietary technology
saw a lot of people using it for free and instead of considering those
people as free advertising they saw them as "lost" dollars. So they raised
the prices and restricted access. ActiveWorlds then faded from general
view.

VRML had "cheap" going for it. You could knock up a quick virtual world in
a few minutes in any text editor, even though the language always was
unnecessarily verbose (even more so now with X3D).

Unfortunately the language has a number of stumbling blocks that render it
less than easy, especially if you wanted to network with friends in VR.
And even with some long-overdue changes in X3D it still doesn't have peer-
to-peer networking, HUD, particles, avatar animation (though the HAnim-
nodes are a beginning), bump-mapping, IK, physics modeling, reflection
(environment mapping is part of the solution but portals are needed too),
sound effects and filters, procedural textures, light flare and halo,
shadows, etc. Many of those are considered a necessity in any game engine
and a lot of them have been in Contact for years.

Animating anything in VRML is unnecessarily convoluted and opaque. After
years of use I still have to hit the books when I need to do even simple
animations. It should be easier than that. And don't say that such things
*have* to be complicated -- they aren't in ActiveWorlds or in some other
engines. Why should they be in VRML/X3D?

Anybody who has spent more than a few minutes with one of the common game
engines or with ActiveWorlds will find it difficult to understand why
people like me persist with VRML (and X3D). We have become like Don
Quixote, battling goddamn windmills. As the language falls further and
further behind what can be done, with no effort spent on looking to what
can't yet be done, we become irrelevant. VRML 1.0 was a bold step. VRML
2.0 was another major step. It fixed a lot of shortcomings of the first
version and in doing so almost completely rewrote the language, making it
capable of interaction. VRML97 made tiny changes, so insignificant that I
keep forgetting what they were. X3D has made some steps forward but is
essentially VRML 97 in XML with several long-needed additions. Where is
the vision that produced the Living Worlds proposal back in 1996(!!) and
the Open Community proposal (also 1996)?

I didn't want to make this a moan. But every time I take a larger view of
VRML/X3D I can't escape this conclusion.

I am not blaming any individuals (though I remain annoyed at the the
consortium stealing VRML). All the people working to make various
improvements to VRML have done marvelous things and are to be praised.
Many of the new nodes have been desperately needed. I almost bite my
tongue because what I'm saying sounds like I'm chastising them for too
little too late.

But in the end if we want to ask why VRML/X3D isn't taking off in a big,
big way, we have the answer right here in front of us.

Sorry to be depressing. I wish this was a call to arms... it is not too
late yet.

	- Miriam


Tony Parisi wrote:

http://www.crn.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=48800085

'Berners-Lee said he's perplexed by the fact that 3-D graphics haven't
really been exploited to create more multidimensional desktop


experiences on

the Web. "The standards are there. Is it because people feel queasy 

about

3-D?" he said.'

Good question.

------------------------------------------------------------------------ 

-

Tony Parisi 415-648-1739 

vox

President 415-902-8002 

cel

Media Machines, Inc. 

tparisi@mediamachines.com

Real-Time 3D Communication 

http://www.mediamachines.com

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       How I wish I could enumerate PI easily
        3. 1  4   1   5       9      2   6
---------=---------=---------=---------=---------=---------=------
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My live Journal page http://www.livejournal.com/users/miriam_e/
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