[x3d-public] Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions have no way to assign textures
Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)
brutzman at nps.edu
Mon Dec 5 13:32:00 PST 2022
John,
1. Please contact Web3D Executive Director Anita Havele (email or web3d
contact page) regarding access problems. There is a 2-step login for
members. Please do not modify any Mantis issues, we use mailing list for
discussions.
2. There is another "Joe" example from 2004 that (real) Joe and I have been
working on upgrading to X3D.
* X3D Example Archives: Humanoid Animation, Characters, Joe Skeleton
Site Skin Salute Walk
* Attempting to show skeleton, skin, sites and animation
*
https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeS
keletonSiteSkinSaluteWalkIndex.html
3. If you want to learn X3D Textures, you are welcome to use book slides
videos examples:
* X3D Example Archives: X3D4WA, X3D for Web Authors, Chapter 05
Appearance Material Textures
*
https://x3dgraphics.com/examples/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter05AppearanceMateria
lTextures/index.html
all the best, Don
--
Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman at nps.edu
Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
From: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, December 5, 2022 12:25 PM
To: Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>
Cc: X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org) <x3d-public at web3d.org>;
h-anim at web3d.org
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions have
no way to assign textures
I have tried several times to get into Mantis today. It's not unusual for
me not to get in. I will use "send a comment" in the future.
1. There's no "Joe" example in the HAnim 2 Standards or Annexes. As you
say, Joe doesn't doesn't match current standards.
2. There is a "Joe" example in the archives:
https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeK
ickIndex.html
3. I haven't mastered Textures yet. Waiting for integration with
Stability.AI, midJourney, etc. Yes, I'm aware of Text-to-Video and Imagen
Videos. I also know that there may be Video-to-X3D (recommendations? I've
only done my face so far--not a texture.). Yes, I've used variations on a
fragment shader.
4. I'm a bit leary of recording video around the house, maybe I can do some
while I am walking!
On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 1:44 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)
<brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu> > wrote:
John, the mantis issue includes two examples already.
A. The first by Joe uses "skin" field with a Shape (illegal according to
spec), rather than geometry node only (as specified by X3D spec). That is
why his example is able to use textures, and that approach seems appropriate
for X3D4.
B. The second Korean-student example uses "skeleton" field with descendant
HAnimSegment nodes containing Shape geometry. That is a different approach,
long valid, with similar visual effects as "skin" geometry.
If you have another example that you want to propose for X3D Example
archives, we are always happy to review and consider together on mailing
list. Thanks for your scrutiny and development efforts.
all the best, Don
--
Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman at nps.edu
<mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>
Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
_____
From: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com <mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com> >
Sent: Monday, December 5, 2022 11:25:03 AM
To: Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>
>
Cc: X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org
<mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org> ) <x3d-public at web3d.org
<mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org> >; h-anim at web3d.org <mailto:h-anim at web3d.org>
<h-anim at web3d.org <mailto:h-anim at web3d.org> >
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions have
no way to assign textures
NPS WARNING: *external sender* verify before acting.
Don, my comment was more about examples in HAnim 2 Standard Annex. If one
wants to put an example with skin in the HAnim 2 annexes, that would be
great. You have identified a problem with the body of the standard, I have
identified a problem with annex.
I do not know a way to handle cases where there is an unmentioned field. I
haven't checked Joe Kick yet.
But yeah, conscientious attitudes are welcome too. We're playing the long
game. I feel very bad about not being able to read everything.
A skin field is welcome! I will add to Mantis.
CFE?
John
On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 12:08 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)
<brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu> > wrote:
Hi John. We use Mantis for tracking possible issues in the specifications.
The problem in the X3D4 specification appears to be that there is no way to
assign textures to skin geometry.
The Mantis issue (copied into this email) also proposes a solution that
fixes the problem.
all the best, Don
--
Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman at nps.edu
<mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>
Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
faculty.nps.edu/brutzman <http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman>
From: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com <mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com> >
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2022 9:37 PM
To: Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>
>
Cc: X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org
<mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org> ) <x3d-public at web3d.org
<mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org> >; h-anim at web3d.org <mailto:h-anim at web3d.org>
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions have
no way to assign textures
There is no derivation that i see.
On Sun, Dec 4, 2022 at 11:33 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com
<mailto:yottzumm at gmail.com> > wrote:
Don, I did notice that there were no skins on an HAnim Motion 2 example. I
will check the repository again tomorrow.
Is Joe Kick ok?
Do HAnim nodes derive from some Shape type?
John
On Sun, Dec 4, 2022 at 6:14 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)
<brutzman at nps.edu <mailto:brutzman at nps.edu> > wrote:
Joe and I were working with various HAnim models today (using X3D-Edit!) and
found an important problem.no
<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproblem.no
%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf7787597ce0b4017007808dad6fec874%7C6
d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638058687044148718%7CUnknown%7CTWF
pbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%
7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=KZ%2BrlWElgClAwEQZe0xkbrTaBfrj0Sr6pOJ4CWztYek%3D&reser
ved=0>
* Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions have no way to assign
textures
* https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1410
HAnimHAnimHumanoid skin definitions have no way to assign textures because
Shape nodes are not currently allowed in the X3D4 parent-child node
hierarchy.
* X3D4 Architecture, HAnim component, 26.3.2 HAnimHumanoid
*
https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/
components/hanim.html#HAnimHumanoid
Relevant field is
MFNode [in,out] skin [] [IndexedFaceSet, IndexedFanSet, IndexedQuadSet,
IndexedTriangleSet, IndexedTriangleStripSet]
It is possible to assign color values, through use of Color or ColorRGBA
nodes within IndexedFaceSet, for example. However, because Shape is not
permitted, there is no way to assign corresponding Appearance with either
Material or ImageTexture.
The following example shows animated skin with a texture, playable in X_ITE
(and X3DOM and BSContact) players.
* X3D Example Archives: Humanoid Animation, Characters, Joe Kick
*
<https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/Joe
KickIndex.html>
https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeK
ickIndex.html
Excerpt:
<Shape DEF='Joe_Shape' containerField='skin'>
<Appearance DEF='Joe_skin_Appearance'>
<Material DEF='Joe_skin_Material' diffuseColor='0.3 0.3 0.6'
emissiveColor='0.3 0.3 0.6'/>
<ImageTexture DEF='JoeSkinImageTexture'
url=' "JoeBodyTexture29.png" "
<https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/Joe
BodyTexture29.png%22>
https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeB
odyTexture29.png" '/>
<!-- ROUTE information for KickTextureTransform node: [from
SkinInterpolator.value_changed to rotation ] -->
<TextureTransform DEF='KickTextureTransform'/>
</Appearance>
<IndexedFaceSet DEF='Joe_skin_IndexedFaceSet' etc.
<Coordinate DEF='Joe_SkinCoord' point= etc.
<TextureCoordinate point='0 0 0.5 0.5 0.5 0 0 0.5'/>
</IndexedFaceSet>
</Shape>
HAnim specification says
* HAnim specification version 2 volume 1, 6 Object interfaces, 6.2 Humanoid
*
<https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/Architecture/Obje
ctInterfaces.html#Humanoid>
https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/Architecture/Objec
tInterfaces.html#Humanoid
sequence<Object> skin [] [indexed mesh objects as defined by the
representation]
An example "representation" for HAnim is X3D.
Possible fix:
a. Allow Shape node, in addition to IndexedFaceSet etc. (Matching Joe's
example)
b. Note in the X3D4 specification prose that such a Shape node must contain
one of those same nodes (IFS, ITS etc.). That will allow identical geometry
capabilities that are currently clearly defined.
Note that the animated Korean characters did not display such a problem
because they are apparently textures are part of HAnimSegment that is
animated, which is part of skeleton field hierarchy, and not part of skin
field. For example,
* X3D Example Archives: Humanoid Animation, Characters, Jin LOA 4
* Articulated 3D game character designed with a general graphics tool,
then converted into an X3D HAnim model.
*
https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JinL
OA4Index.html
We recommend
* Taking a generous view of HAnim2 wording "[indexed mesh objects as
defined by the representation]"
* to allow identical usage of a Shape node, thus ensuring that
textures are possible on animated human skin.
* Such an approach is already demonstrated in our examples, so it is
feasible and expected.
Sincerely yours, Joe and Don.
all the best, Don
--
Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman at nps.edu
<mailto:brutzman at nps.edu>
Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
faculty.nps.edu/brutzman <http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman>
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